Taijuan as 'Generational Talent'
Buzz, dept.

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Most scouts and coaches that we talk to, back-channel, are surprisingly friendly and accepting of SSI's shtick.  This despite the fact that Dr. D is not as habitually tactful as baseball people have to be, in order to work together in such close quarters for such long hours.

They're friendly and accepting in part because they tend to be naturally gracious people, in part because they are hip to SSI's tongue-in-cheek angle, and in part because they're not put off by receiving information in addition to giving it.

Contrast this with the way we 'net rats treat each other ... :- )

Most baseball folks would rather not be 'outed' on any blog.  I mean, what's the upside, with your boss, to getting caught in a flame war on the internet?  Much less in being associated with some volatile blog author who might write who knows what the next day.  It's just a lot easier, and wiser, to surf the 'net without diving in.

Still, one interesting poster did venture in to point out that 'the buzz around Walker is that he's a generational talent, something VERY special.'  Regardless of whether he was DaddyO under a prank nickname or who he was, he reminded us of something key to the issue, if we're kibitzing possible trades of Taijuan Walker.

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On-Field View vs 'Net Rat View

If a scout told you that "the buzz is that Danny Farquhar will close next year" -- he wouldn't -- by "buzz" he would mean "it's one of the things that scouts, players, and coaches are buying in to."  "Buzz" isn't a glossary term given much credence on most saber sites, but here (and, obviously, at Prospect Insider) it's a valued lane on the information highway.  

Many times an author will focus on what he believes, and what Jack Zduriencik should do, as the author sees it.  Let's not also forget what Jack Zduriencik and his people believe, and what they are likely to do.  You're not going to learn about that, without giving credence to the field's-eye view, now are you.

So you stop and remind yourself about all the attributes that Taijuan Walker possesses, that sabermetricians do not care about, but which scouts (like Zduriencik) care dearly about:

  • Taijuan's hand engulfs the baseball as if it were a ping-pong ball (tight-spin breaking pitches a la DiceK)
  • He is nearly Pineda's size (natural leverage, release point, and endurance)
  • His mechanics came around much faster than expected (learning curve is terrifying)
  • Control "feels" reliable; contrast Paxton, who is much older (no worrisome "downside")
  • He has "flashed" a Pedro curve
  • His fastball is overwhelming (baseball people loooooove high-end velo)
  • He has four (4) distinct pitches -- CURRENTLY regarded as two plus pitches, and two solid pitches (baseball people looooooove varied arsenals)  (only Felix and Verlander have 95 MPH and 4 pitches)
  • Overhand delivery.  Hop on fastball.  Cut on fastball. = "Exploding" fastball.
  • His makeup is right where you want it to be, right down to calling people "sir"
  • He worked beautifully with Zunino and Willis (like Paxton did, and like Maurer and Farquhar did NOT)
  • He has been groomed entirely by the org, is a "pet discovery" to be proud of
  • He came up to the big leagues and pitched very well, instantly...
  • ... then shut it down, leaving a "sky's the limit" impression over the winter

And so what happens is you get a long series of scouts and coaches going, "Aha!  THIS is what it looks like when you've got a Verlander, or Pedro, or Bob Gibson on your hands.  Been awhile since we saw this!"

Take, for example, the Pedro curve.  In three games, I think I counted 5 times that Taijuan legitimately cracked off a curve like that, a "best curve in baseball" pitch.  Awesome arm action, "pop the parachute" effect causing the slowdown optical illusion, late break, acute angle as it crosses home plate, located to a side of the plate.

To the sabermigo, that's a big So What.  Five great pitches, unquantifiable by F/X.  To the baseball person, Taijuan has "flashed" the pitch that he will soon own.  They've heard this song before.  They're trying to project.  You project by catching flashes.

............

Most scouts are probably thinking of Taijuan as being Justin Verlander at least.  Suppose that, at the All-Star Break 2014, he has had 18 Rookie Verlander starts.  You deal him for Stanton then?  It would be irresponsible.  You've got Taijuan for six years.

Personally, my bias is towards K-Pax.  I think he's the one who is cool, and fun to watch pitch ... actually I never really got that attached to Felix.  It's just a bias.

But objectively speaking, I've got to admit Taijuan is going to be the guy with the mammoth value inside baseball.  It wouldn't surprise me if Taijuan's value were higher right now -- in the eyes of GM's -- than Felix' was than he was called up.  (But as our friend, above, also reminded:  you never know what any particular GM is going to do.  Stay on your toes.)

Whichever side of the Cabrera/Stanton/Aaron trade market you're taking, buzz is you'll have to leave Taijuan out of it.  

BABVA,

Dr D

Blog: 

Comments

1

Straight up baseball-speak, Doc. Thanks.
In the past week, we've been treated to Taijuan, Pax and ERam treating us to a very cool spectacle: MOR to TOR arms, all arriving at exactly the same time. Sure I suppose some will say, "Well trade one of them, then!" Not me. I would have no problem girding my loins and going to battle with those guys right out of ST, but I suspect one of theTai-Pax twins will get some Tacoma time to save the year.
Buying bats is a simple thing, in comparison to buying young arms like that.
I'm playing the hand we've been dealt. Three aces is a powerful bet.
moe

2

"...DaddyO under a prank nickname..."
???
'Twasn't me who said Walker was a generational talent. I don't consider myself capable enough to evaluate young players other than what my untrained eyes see (and what I've seen of Walker in one start looks pretty doggone good).
Of course, I'm not sure you're saying it was me who said. It's all good, but I'd like to know that if I'm gaining fame or notoriety it's only for something really said or done by me. Inquiring minds want to know.

3

You were the last guy who was going to come from the angle that Bob did, so it was my usual (very) little attempt at wit.  :daps:

5

Maybe I'm just a dreamer even after 65 years, but I dream of Taijuan Walker being our Spahn and we don't yet have an Aaron. I don't think Walker should be traded. I'm convinced from looking at the history of big trades that we wouldn't have to IF we could give Miami something they need and like. And they have some significant needs and an owner with definite likes and dislikes (which do seem to change from time to time). So there is an opportunity, no more.
That's all I've tried to say all along - the club that I see is very close with talent to the level of the '60 Giants or the '56 or '90 Braves or the '61 Dodgers (trade Koufax? you gotta be kiddin') or other clubs (the '93 Mariners - just before they hired Lou) on the verge of breaking out with LOTS of young talent. Maybe it won't happen. But I'm mystified by those who say it is an illusion and that the young players and the talent in the minors is some sort of an illusion, a Copacino+Fujikado induced mass hypnosis. Maybe it's because those that scoff have never seen it - but yet Tampa and KC and Pittsburgh?....
The season has been bad. I get that. But I've seen a LOT of infielders, a LOT of catchers, a LOT of pitchers over the years. Franklin's arm the past couple of days when he has been at shortstop is adequate, but no more. But his fielding is Vizquel-Smith quality. At 2B he is going to be a star and I love his attitude and determination. Likewise, Zunino is showing the kind of nous of a Del Crandall, Tom Haller, and Tim McCarver - he really knows how to run a game. He needs to work on controlling the running game to get classed with Bench, Ivan Rodriguez, or Yadier Molina, but the guys I note were considered among the smartest catchers who ever played.
Seager at third is starting to also show that he's in a special class. Schmidt or Brett? not yet. Robinson? No, probably not. Santo, Clete or Ken Boyer, Ron Cey, Jim Davenport? Yes, he's in that conversation - Davenport and Cey and Ken Boyer now, Clete and Ron Santo on his horizon. And it's not because he's an Alex Rodriguez physical specimen. It's because he's a tough, hard-working kid who wants to be a champion.
The young pitching is VERY special. I personally believe that Walker, Hultzen, Paxton, Maurer, Ramirez, and Pike are all, barring injury, going to be very good MLB pitchers. There are more arms that are intriguing - Diaz, Unsworth, Landazuri, Sanchez, Gohara ... the list goes on and is really quite spectacular. But Taijuan is a guy to pair with Felix for the ages - to be classed, ultimately, with Spahn-Burdette (alas, so short a time), Koufax-Drysdale, Maddux-Glavine-Smoak, as dominating rotations for the baseball memory book. If it takes him to get a Stanton, then even I would say no. But I maintain that Erasmo Ramirez is himself a young star-in-the-making with a determination to carry him a long ways. Will he top out as a Meche or Pineiro? Probably - but that's a very valuable pitcher at the peak. And if Hultzen can be our Glavine between the two righties - well, all-time time.
Smoak, Ackley, Montero, Saunders -- yes, they've disappointed. But a lot of players take some time to settle in. Jimmy Dolan - "if it was easy, everybody'd be doin' it". All of them though, have shown flashes, and even weeks, of star-level performance. Much more than Jeff Clement or Jeremy Reed ever did. Can they get it together, as Ryan Sandberg, or Felipe Alou, or even Mickey Mantle had too? My bet - heavily influenced by my heart, so maybe a bad one - is that all will be valuable major league players for quite a while. I just hope it's for us. Add Miller, Almonte, and the ones coming -- Deej, Sasquatchtin, Taylor, Kivlehan, and on and on - and the Ms can be somebody, can be a contender.

6

You give yourself too little credit with regard to wit. If anything, it was probably TOO witty, sailed right over my head! Like I said, it's all good.

7

you could be right. Neither of us knows for sure. That's why they call the future "the future." If the Mariners do in fact hold the course, I hope you ARE right. In fact, in that case I'd be HAPPY to be wrong.

8

People may make fun of us, but if you ain't dreamin on these kids, you ain't a baseball fan. Maybe you're a dreamer, but to quote a wise man, you're not the only one.

12

While D.J. Peterson got really good press for his year (.914 OPS in Everett, .922 in Clinton), Austin "Sasquatchtin" Wilson started out VERY slowly transitioning to the pro game - a .321 OPS in his first 7 games in June. But in mid-July he started to find himself. On July 15, he was batting .165. From July 16th on, in 36 games (of 56 total), he hit .290/.371/.540/.911 . The 21 games in August, he was .296/.367/.606/.973.
Evidence:
1) After the slow start he improved steadily to a level as good or better than Peterson.
2) Throughout, he played a very good to outstanding RF.
3) Every aspect of his hitting improved through the season, hits, power, walks, and decreased Ks.
4) He's a VERY smart kid who listens, watches, and learns.
Conclusion:
If we can't get Stanton, we have a chance at a similar profile (strong, intimidating RH hitter that is also a fine RF) coming in 1-2 years if everything continues to develop.
So, even if we miss out on Stanton (as long as he doesn't go to Texas), I'm going to dream of better days ahead.
EDIT: to correct math error on 36 G OBP

13

Been meaning to post this but hadn't had a chance until now. In addition to Stanton/Beltran, I think Curtis Granderson might be high on the Mariners' radar.
Earlier this month, I went to a Orioles-Yankees game and got there before the rest of my group so I could go down and watch BP. Noticed a man in the section behind home plate with a radar gun and notebook, so I went over and sat next to him to see if I could pick his brain. I've done this several times before; sometimes they'll deny being a scout, othertimes they'll wave for the usher, and every once and a while they'll talk to you. This particular scout was one of the good ones, and I was able to talk to him for a few minutes - mainly Orioles/Yankees small talk, but of interest to SSI is that he was with the Mariners and was there specifically to scout Curtis Granderson. In the game, Granderson crushed one of the longest homeruns I've seen at Camden Yards and later hit a triple (which he possibly could have gotten an inside the park homerun on) on a flyball that would have been a double for most players. I assume the scouting report was positive.
Gotta admit initially I was very surprised the Mariners would be scouting Granderson, but after looking closer he seems to make some sense. Moderate buy-low player because of the injury this season. *84 homeruns* between 2011/2012. Next year will be his age 33 season so not ancient. Intelligent and well-spoken; very active in charitable work. Reputation as a team leader. He's the type of player the Mariners spend money on.
Not sure how significant one scouting assignment may be, but thought this might be worth considering when plotting out your 2014 M's lineups...

14

Grandy-man is even more interesting considering his platoon splits. Although he bats LH, over his career he's hit RHs at a .705 OPS and LHs at a .877 OPS. In 2013, its been .708 vRH and .837 vLH. So he might be a great fit for the Ms without having to give up prospects in trade, although he would cost the 2nd round pick (assuming the 1st rounder is protected - although if the Ms win more than 3 of the final 6, that could be in doubt). After a close look, I think he might be cheaper, more "gettable", and as good a fit as Pence. Great Intel!!
And on cue, MLBTradeRumors has a free agent profile on him -- http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/09/free-agent-profile-curtis-granders...

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