Main Chat Thread, Sept. 11 - 17, 2016
wow! M's playoff chances double in one day, to 15%

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THE SSI LOBBY

Earlier, we posted the "Main Shout Box Sept. 09 2016" area, which had the predictable, completely unpredictable SSI user result:  it became the Shout Box ... in the CMS comments area.  Heh!  Which, well, verbal and functional feedback is always vital in this game.  No, not feedback on Dr. D's shtick as such; that was written off about the time of the STATS AOL boards.  Or Mariner Central at the latest.

So ... here's a comments thread to be the "coherent general conversation" through next Sunday or so.  'ave at thee, varlet.  

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PLAYOFF CHANCES

Yesterday, Moe had laid everything out nice and clear, as clear as any 6-car pileup is going to get.  We will now redact all of his Sunday-morning numbers to include Sunday's (wonderful) results, so the numbers are Moe-accurate as of this stub:

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14-5 = 89 and that still remains the best safe-bet number.    Toronto, currently in the #1 WC slot, needs 11-9 to get to 89.  It is possible that could allow them to catch Boston for the East crown; the Sox need to go 10-10 to reach 89.   If we go 14-5 it likely makes the Blue Jays' effort a bit tougher, as we play them 3 times.  Figure we get 2 of those 3 (which we probably need to do to get to 89), then they have to go 10-7 in their remaining games.

Baltimore, now sitting in slot #2, needs 11-9; ... Detroit and NYY 13-7 ... Houston, 14-5.  But if we go 15-5 there is almost no way that Houston goes 14-5 as we play them 6 times.  We would probably have to go 4-2 vs. them.  Do that and then they would have to play the rest of their schedule in 12-2.  

89 wins is doable.  Well, sort of.  Less than a 1% chance is still doable, isn't it?  I made a hole-in-one once, and such things come with long odds.  Of course, I've had several thousand rolls of the Par 3 dice in my lifetime, too.  The '16 M's only get one toss.  What was it that Ol' Blue Eyes asked?  Luck be a Lady? 

Edit:  Oops.  Left this out:  I still really like Gamel...really. A lot.

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For some reason Dr. D totally spaced out on this concept, that if the Mariners go 14-5 then Houston and Toronto don't.  LOL.  And Moe was kidding about the 1%; FanGraphs has the Mariners' playoff chances as WAY up to 15.4%.

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MARINERS 3, A's 2

It might seem like the M's just kinda randomly won a 1-run game.  They didn't.  They had much the best of the bases gained and bases lost.  Also, the M's got the usual "hard" three plus runs that this machine-like offense will get, if you only offer it a quality start.

Krueger says "the Mariners have their pitching sorted out," that they are getting runs up and down the lineup, and they're ready to win now.  Fill in your own political punch line.

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James Paxton had a way off day stuff-wise.  As Bill James said, YOU try pitching with a Band-Aid on your finger.  You know what he/I mean.  But aside from the 6 IP, 2 ER on a terrible day, there was something else interesting:  unable to throw his fosh, and after ten curve balls, Paxton started cracking off stukka-divebomber curves.  Those guys get better at pitches they use.

....

We got the overwhelming Edwin Diaz on Sunday, which we normally do on 1 day's rest.  If you didn't see the game ...  he was starting them with late-breaking sliders, finishing them with 98 into a teacup, took only two pitches for the whole inning and is fresh for Monday's Angelbake.  Krueger had a good line:  it's the Randy Johnson scenario, pick one of his pitches to Try. to hit, because you ain't going to deal with two.  When that is the "whooo!" impression from field level, you know you have got something.

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SEAHAWKS 1-0

Which is all that matters to an actual, live-in-the-flesh football coach, or coach of anything.  But we're guessing the total yards were not ugly either.  Neither is the scout's grade on Russell Wilson's makeup.  Somebody name me a quarterback who had better?

Enjoy,

Jeff

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Comments

1

My 1% figure came fom some quick mental pencil figuring.  To go 15-5 it made no difference when the losses came.   So off the top of my head I figured the  M's (as a 53% team) would be at 6 wins/5 losses in the first 11 games (or better) 50% of the time.  So if 50% of the time they had hit 5 losses (their proposed maximum), in 11 games....then they had to run the tables in games 12-20 to get in.  In my head I quickly figured that with a 50% chance of winning each subsequent game (actually  it's 53% but 50% made it easy to figure in my head) their chance of WC-land success dropped to less than 1% over the next nine games.    And I'm aware that I did some rounding and simplification.  But the number gets to  1% pretty quickly.  Think about flipping coins, for example.  And none of that factored in the possiblity that 89 wouldn't be enough.

Then I did a bit of research this morning:  There are more than 1,000,000 possible win/loss outcomes over 20 games in you figure on a 50% win/loss chance.  WWWLWLWLWWLL and so forth.  More than a million of them.  2 to the 20th.  Again, think of flipping coins.

There are 21,700 combinations that result in 15 or more wins. 

21,700/1,000,000 = 0.0217   2.1% 

Because we were a 53% team, our odds were slightly better than this.  My 1% guesstimate was a bit off.

Check it out here:  https://www.quora.com/If-you-toss-a-coin-20-times-what-is-the-probabilit...

Now we're left with 500,000+ possbile combinations of outcomes over 19 games.  2 to the 19th. 

We need to win 14 or more of those 19. 

Our odds have indeed improved (from winning 15 of 20)...But not to 15%, as far as I can see. in fact, in 19 flips of the coin (50% probability) you would hit 14+ head 11,628 times in 500,00+ "chances" = 2.3%.  It is 19 factorial over 14 factorial X 5 factorial.  I think.

The M's have had 125 19-game streaks this year. (Game 19 would be the 1st, #20 the 2nd, #21 the 3rd, etc......)

We have twice gone 14-5.  That's it.  We've had 2 14-5 streaks in 125 tries. 

I can't see where we have a 15% chance of doing it from here on out. Of course, the magic number might be 88 or 87...or 90.  We don't yet know what the Tigers et al are going to do  But  regardless of the total we have to pass three of the four teams ahead of us....AND the team we're tied with in order for us to get in.  We've spotted the 4 teams ahead of us between 1.5 and 3 games.    Will a team in our situation do that once in every six or seven tries?  That's a 15% chance.  This is a handicapped horse race and the faster horses (so far) get the head start.

I suppose I'm lost in the weeds.  Math was a long time ago for me....but I even checked in with our Calc class at school this morning for some backup. Our excellent teacher has helped me out some...at least to get a grip on some of this.

I love conundrums like this.  Show me where I'm wrong.

Keith

2

It includes long periods without Walker, Paxton, Felix, Zunino, Heredia, Lee, Aoki, Diaz...In fact, everyone in the bullpen except Nuno.

The additions far outweigh the subtractions as well. 

The current roster is much better than the average roster on the season.  Factor that and your odds improve.  If you factor momentum, strength of schedule...I don't know.   15% may still be high but I think 1% is probably low.  The head to head puts more of it into their hands.   They're currently 25-24 vs remaining opponents.  Again, that record was largely accrued by lesser versions of the roster.  They still need to significantly outpace 4 of 5 teams but that's exactly what they've done the last 7 (6-1) and 10 (7-3 in Sep.) games. 

3

Great point Wish,

I actually thought about that sort of thing (and some other variables), but it applies to every team ahead of us, too.  I didn't have the time to look at each and every roster and evaluate who was missing for how long.

Admittedly, my 1% guesstimate was likely low. 

I will say that was quickly figured off the top of my head.  But it was low, all the same.

A fair question is whether you would bet $100 right now that the M's make the playoffs.  Payoff to be $700.

Baseball Prospectus has us a 12.5%.  Their Simmy gets us to 85 wins. 3 behinds Baltimore and Toronto and 1.5 behind Detroit.  So they are saying that 88 is the magic number. 

MLB.com has us at 12%.  So I'm likely wrong.  Their's is based on Simmy runs using remaining schedule, run differential and roster composition.

Essentially they are saying that 1 in 8 times, over a 19 game run, we will pick up 3 games on either Toronto or Baltimore AND 1.5 games on both Detroit and New York PLUS sneaking in ahead of Houston.  1 in 8 still sounds dang optimistic.  I'm not seeing it.

4

is that 7-3.  It's like going 2-6 on a day to drop below .400.  14-6 may not get them there. 

6

A math teacher will push at this problem from the rear, so to speak - using a binomial calculator.  

If a coin has a 53% chance of landing heads, then in 19 flips it has only a 5.5% chance of coming up heads 14+ times.  That's the fact.  Of course, the chance of it coming up 5 heads in a row (as the M's just did!) is only 4.2%.  And we all know intuitively that it wasn't all that big a deal for the M's to win those 5 games.

But you're right:  there is something about the nature of this game that makes the Mariners very unlike a flipped coin.

.........

Fangraphs pulls at the problem from the front of the golf cart:  it reverse-engineers from game 162.  It runs simulations of all games actually on the schedule, and factoring in Kyle Seager's 900 OPS+, etc.  

This gives over a 15% chance for the M's to make the playoffs; undoubtedly your math prof amigo was not familiar with Fangraphs' simulated-seasons approach.  

And!  That 15% chance completely ignores any chance for the M's to suddenly be a better team now than they used to be.

.......

That 15% playoff chance must depend a lot on other teams losing, going 8-13, etc., more than on the M's going 14-5.  No doubt, the M's chances depend on other teams opening the door.  Their fate isn't in their own hands.

Great post as always Keith.  Your point that 14-5 is very, very tough ... I hadn't realized quite how tough.

7
Nathan H's picture

The only character in NFL history that lives up to Wilson's off-the-charts make-up has got to be Roger Staubach.

  • Dominated College while attending Naval Academy
  • Drafted by teams in both the AFL and the NFL, despite there being a full year before his college eligibility was over
  • After being drafted, became a Naval Officer (volunteering for duty in Vietnam when he didn't have to), leaving four years of professional football on the table
  • Invented the 'Hail Mary'
  • Had a .750 regular season winning percentage
  • while colorblind
  • Suffered 20 concussions
  • subsequently built a business that sold in 2008 for $613 million
  • Married to his grade-school sweetheart for over 50 years

None of these things tell you the make-up of a man. But the make-up of a man that does all these things must be extraordinary.

8

Exactly the player the man that I had in the back of my head.

+2 Nathan.

9

I've long argued that Staubach was one of the very best QB's in league history.  Unitas, Staubach, Brady, Starr, Elway, maybe Peyton now.    Winning counts.  Impacting the way the position is seen and played counts.  marino didn't win the big one.  Ditto Fouts.  Montana did...he should be in here somewhere.  Bradshaw did....but everybody remembers those Steeler teams as defensive dominant and run oriented.  Tell Lynn Swann and John Stallworth that.  Favre is here, too.

Brady, Unitas, Staubach, Elway, Favre, Starr, Montana, Peyton, Bradshaw.  In that order.  How's that?  Montana ahead of Starr, perhaps. I can live with that.  Give Rodgers another Super Bowl and he gets into the Top 10.

Unitas invented the modern QB position, was cerebral way ahead of his day, created intricate audible adjustments (with Ray Berry), changed the game forever.

10

I spent a good deal of time showing my son and grandson YouTube clips of Roger Staubach and saying, "This is who Russell Wilson reminds me of." As a 49er fan prior to the Seahawks being established, Roger drove me crazy in the postseason.

11

Another way to put would be: If we had 2015 Mike Zunino at the plate and threw him nothing but low and away sliders, he had much more of a chance of hitting one than the 2016 Mariners have of making the playoffs. Or as David Horowitz used to say on how much more material was upcoming in his 1980's consumer tv show, "Much, MUCH more!"

"So your talling me there's a CHANCE!" 

I guess so, if that's how you want to look at it. 

12

Have a Happy Trout Series, btw.

Willie Dang Mays, guys.   That's who Trout is.

Trout's slump year came at age 22.  He had a total collapse down to a .287-.377-.561 (168 OPS+) line in '14.  His other 4 full seasons are significantly better than that.  Nelson Cruz's BEST season was last year:  .302-.369-.566 (159).  Oh, in Trout's WORST season he still won the MVP.  And played terrific defense in CF.

In Nelson Cruz's best season, he still couldn't hold a candle to Trout's worst one.  OK....so factor out the glove and Cruz peaks at Trout's nadir.  Really.

You have to look to Junior to get a similar guy OF guy.  Their numbers are comparable to age 25. Trout is that good.  When Trout wiins the MVP this year he will have had 5 years without finishing below 2nd in the MVP balloting.  He's in Willie Mays territory guys. Mantle, Aaron,  Williams and  DiMaggio live there, too.  I think the address is

#1 HoF Drive

Mt. Olympus

Zeus lives just down the street.  But Poseidon and Hades live across the tracks in the low rent district.

Bashing, RHB, + or ++ OF types like Trout  (Mays, Aaron, Robinson, DiMaggio) don't see significant production loss until well after the age of 34.  In fact, they all  had near career seasons at 34.  Billy Williams, too.  Miggy is like that.

Mortals like George Foster and Richie Allen begin to decline 2 years earlier....and it is more precipitous.

I smile thinking about Mike Trout.

I will enjoy the series. 

13

...but there is nothing about the thought of him that makes me smile.

At least not in the first inning...

14

He's currently got a .902 OPS.  That is with a .229 batting average, which means it ain't BAbip driven. Okay, take a deep breath and appreciate what I am about to say: In 141 PA's, Mike Zunino has a .229 batting average and a .348 OBP to go along with .559 slugging.

His 1.6 WAR is mostly fuelled by his OFFENSE.

Yowza.

 

15

Tonight's game is why they cannot really give up on Walker. The ceiling is just too darn high. 

16

The Walker that got murdered by the same Angels two starts ago I declared DOA...I said then that unless he overhauls his faulty mechanics and/or develops a true offspeed out pitch to compliment his fastball and change, it would take him too long to learn to pitch with enough command and his fastball velocity would be gone by the time he did.

I was greatly relieved when his reaction to getting killed was to accept coaching on his mechanics.

Then last night, he went out there and his velocity was 2 mph faster, he was getting deadfish action on his splitter, and...oh yes...he learned to throw a true yellow hammer of a curveball and he threw it over 20 times in the game.  All because his fixed his mechanics...at least for now.  He is now a drop and drive pitcher and no longer a short-arm/squatter robbing himself of his power source.

THAT Walker...THAT guy could win a CY.

17

Right. He's still only 24 - the same age Paxton got his cup of coffee...four seasons ago. This off season will be huge for Taijuan.

On the radio broadcast postgame, they talked about Stottlemyre calling his father Mel Sr. Evidently, Sr told him that he saw the same things in Walker's delivery. But he advised him that a guy like Walker would have to bottom out before he would be open to the coaching. Kind of prophetic.  

18
Arne's picture

The gap between 4th place and 8th place in the AL has compressed to 2.5 games. I'd guess it was 4 or 5 games a week ago. It seems likely that the 4 East teams will lose enough games playing each other over the next 3 weeks that only 2 of them will make the playoffs. That would leave the 2 top non-East teams, Tigers and Mariners, with 1 wild-card spot to contend for.

19

Kyle Lewis via twitter: "Took my first steps in the pool today! One month out of surgery and all is well. Soon enough."

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