Ohtani-mania: San Diego playing the Long Game
Rampant speculation runs rampant.

So everyone's writing everything Shohei Ohtani, and with good reason.  This guy has invigorated baseball in a way I've not seen in my 36 years of life (granted, only twenty of those were spent paying any meaningful attention to baseball...), and the situation surrounding him is (superlative of your choice) fascinating.

It's probably unsurprising to discover that I, too, am going to write about Shohei Ohtani.  Why?  Because he's interesting, and because he's made me think about baseball again.  For that, he (and his representation, if I'm being cynical) has my gratitude.

You all know the basics, but I thought it might be interesting to delve into some of the lesser known details about his situation.  I thought I'd boil what little I know down to a simple hypothesis: it is my opinion that, simply from an ACTIVE recruiting perspective, the San Diego Padres have the inside track on signing Ohtani.  Before you clap me in irons and hoist that guillotine, hear me out...

San Diego has the Nippon Ham Fighters' former trainer, Seiichiro Nakagaki, on staff.  For those who weren't aware, Nakagaki was with the Fighters earlier in Ohtani's NPB career.  San Diego has also added Hideo Nomo and Takashi Saito to their front office, and they were supposed to have played a big role in the recruiting process.  Thirdly, until last season, the Padres had a deal worked out with the Fighters to let Nippon Ham use their (our) Peoria training complex.  Ohtani is supposed to have been clear that he prefers to train in Arizona (which is where all seven of the teams on his short list train, if memory serves).

Combine all of that, and it's pretty obvious that the Padres have been serious about courting Ohtani, and that they've been building toward this moment for quite some time.  But wait--there's more!

Meet Christian Bethancourt.

Two-Way Christian Bethancourt

There's a good picture of him throwing a pitch.  Pretty good picture, really.  Here's another one of him throwing a pit--hey, wait a minute.

Christian Bethancourt Two-Way Player Part Two

Since when did MLB allow pitchers to wear body armor?  What gives?

Well, it turns out the Padres carried Bethancourt as a two-way player coming out of spring training last year!  He didn't stick in the role, probably because he wasn't quite polished enough in either his hitting or his pitching to warrant the roster spot, but the few quotes I've found in a couple minutes' search returned nothing but effusive praise for his process of adapting to the role of two-way player, along with incessant and unabridged support for the idea of a two-way player.

Yes, dear friends, it seems the Padres have been playing a long, LONG recruiting game when it comes to Ohtani--which is why I put their ACTIVE recruiting efforts higher than Seattle's, even counting all the int'l bonus money contortions JeDi's gone through this offseason.

I still think the M's are favored to land Ohtani, which might be more homerism than anything, but whatever advantage they have--over the Padres at least--will be limited to their geographic, historic, and cultural appeal to Ohtani specifically, and to Japanese players in general.

In the end, I think this thing is down to Seattle and San Diego, and I do think Seattle ends up getting their guy.  The DH slot is going to be HUGE, given Ohtani's concern with his recovery timetables which require minimal stress to be put on his body during his non-pitching days.  But it wouldn't surprise me to see him go to San Diego--whereas pretty much any other team on his list would leave me scratching my head.

Add to that the fact that the Padres were given the final interview of the seven 'finalist' teams, and it's hard to deny that they appear to be in good shape competing for Ohtani's services.

Comments

1

At this point in the process, whether Ohtani signs with my guys or not, I can't do what I usually do and say the M's didn't do what it takes.  I think it's clear that they are all in on this process and have actually done everything they can.  If the M's lose out to San Diego on this one, it'll just be our usual lot in the luck department.

When the list of 7 came out, it was San Diego that had me the most concerned.  I think they, like Seattle, have just about everything it seems like Ohtani would want.  And they have a perfect weather climate.  Not saying that'll be the deciding factor because who really knows (other than Ohtani) what the deciding factor is.

My hope is that Ohtani reads SSI and decides we all know what's best for him.

2

But then, that too could be homerism ;-)

San Diego is definitely the dark horse of these proceedings.  The Angels don't really make sense--if you're going to LA, go to the GOOD LA team.  Texas...bleh, Darvish's bad aftertaste probably doesn't bode well for them.  And Chicago?  Aside from personal connections to guys like Epstein, I don't see it as a fit.

Obviously he could go anywhere he wants.  He's got a unique opportunity to write his own ticket here, and I hope for his sake that he does precisely that without letting anyone influence him ::glares at his representation::

And yeah, I don't see where the M's could have done *much* more than this.  You could quibble over this or that, but the all-in push for int'l slot money has been nearly jaw-dropping in its intensity.  And DiPoto's quotes on Ohtani's unique/historic talent are the ones I see captioned and memed everywhere.  The PR campaign has been effective in public, if not in private, though there are obviously reasons why the M's have had so much institutional success recruiting top Japanese players in the past.  Mr. Yamauchi was certainly part of that, but he couldn't have been all of it--or, at the very least, he couldn't have taken it all with him when he sold the team.

3

I think he signs in Seattle.

But this is based on a few assumptions about him based on some of the things he's purportedly said he's interested in, and the quickness with which he dismissed 75% of the league.

I'm not sure that, based on his initial winnowing of the field, that he would want teams to potentially hurt themselves with their effort to sign him.  Not that I believe the M's have done that - I applaud the trades because of the message it sends.  In other words, if he and his team has basically already decided on San Diego, there is a chance in my mind that he would not want to be the cause of a vain effort.  No team can really offer substantially more than anyone else.

On the other hand.....if the M's are his #2........with a chance......

I don't know - just noodling.  I would think, though, that M's have made it more clear than anyone else.  I think their moves are more substantive than the Pads....

4

..."show me that you want me", then JD has done pretty much all anyone could ask. And all of it right out in plain view.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that's not it.  

Sho has already stated IIRC, that he doesn't want to join a team with another Japanese player.  In other words, that would allow him to stand out.

What if that's expanded to the desire to be the only STAR player on a team?  If that's his thing, the Padres win hands-down.

So the competing question is how much he wants his team to compete.  He singlehandedly is not going to make the Padres competitive in that division.  He would be the de facto star on a losing team.

So I think the M's pitch points are:

  • DH
  • active and welcoming Japnese-American community
  • 'win now' roster

Hoping that's enough.  And for the record, my rival of concern is the Cubs.  I don't know why they made it to the final list unless Sho had a fondness for them going in.  

5

Good points, diderot. One can't help but wonder whether Chicago would be the choice were it not for their geography, and whether or not their geography is enough to forestall the choice.

I too have had a gut feeling San Diego would be the winner ever since news came out that Ohtani was not so much interested in a team's previous success with Japanese players as he was in blazing his own trail as someone who would help turn around a franchise and become his own legend.

If we get him, it will be reason enough to be excited about 2018. If we don't, DiPoto has his work cut out for him.

6
The Other Billy Zoom's picture

...anchors like Mount Fuji, commonly referred to as Fujisan in Japan.

I'm guessing Friday (today) about 3 pm, Seattle time.

That's when Mount Fuji comes into full morning view on Saturday in Tokyo, with full media attention ...

...and provides the perfect lead in to the sports winter meetings, and the full court press by U.S. baseball media.

BabeRuth-san steps into our future with slash lines like we won't believe.

Smile.

zoom

 

7

Thanks for the post Jonez...I didn't know San Diego has Ohtani's former trainer on staff and hadn't heard about Saito and Nomo either.

If the Mariners fail to get Ohtani, not only is the season already over (because he'll have no resources to afford a top starting pitcher and a kludgy list of position players that don't combine well), but the Mariners are screwed for five years, minimum. We so thoroughly gutted or farm system that there's no coming back from that deficit and it's not like there are any particularly compelling assets we can get auth the international slot money we've acquired...the best guys are already taken.

8

Prospects come along all the time.  Niedert is replaceable, other guys are replaceable.  The slot money is still there to use.  There are always players out there that the scouts miss on.  There are always draft classes that have superstars that are not picked in the top 10.

If the M's don't land Othani, I will applaud their effort this time,  And I will be anxiously awaiting the next big thing.  Gotta happen sometime right?  Can't fault them for a single action in this case.  They are making bold moves to make this happen.  It comes with risk.  And I've been preaching for years (same as Doc), that not taking a risk is a huge risk too.  I like the boldness.

9

The international free agent class remaining is all uber-raw babies...I hate IFA babies...they fail 95% of the time...just ask the Mariners...how many 3+ million dollar IFAs have we signed. Anyone remember Carlos Triunfel?

Anything we sign with the slot money we acquired is now garbage that might or might not do something for the club five years from now. This team is screwed.

11

Everything at Baseball America is behind a paywall and they seem to be the only site in the entire vast world of cyberspace to be looking at Cuban players who have recently defected or who may do so soon.

Cuban defectors who are close to the show, though, are generally the 25+ guys who sign as unrestricted free agents, not the ones signing as amateurs.

The current top-30 IFA as seen by MLB writers are, mostly, already signed, with the exception of Jelfry Marte (who just got cut because he wasn't healthy), and one other guy who is currently sixteen. Which is code for "useless and will almost certainly never play in the big leagues".

With Ohtani off the market and the top Braves cast-offs already signed or eligible to sign using next year's IFA budgets, 2017/2018 IFA dollars just went from priceless to completely and utterly worthless.

15

Bold? Yes. Successful? No. Sounds like the Mariners. Can't blame DiPoto, he had to try his hardest with no assurance of success. So I don't mean "how do they look" as if he shouldn't have tried. I just mean, given what we know now, how does the loss of who we gave up for cap money look? How does the Dee Gordon trade look with a million dollars of cap money not very much use?

16

Seattle added a centerfielder who's never played center field and is entirely dependent on batting average, in a stadium that historically suppresses batting average.  He's the sort of player who cannot take advantage of the juiced baseballs, which lowers his upside as well. The Mariners gave up 3 prospects, including their second-best pitching prospect, in part to add international bonus money that will not get back a player as good as the pitcher they gave up.  Whatever international players are added are just for trading, because Dipoto has zero interest in maintaining or improving the farm in any way that does not treat them as pure trade commodities.

They whiffed on Ohtani, and Gordon blows up their budget for signing other domestic improvements. That makes it tougher to add the arm(s) they'll need to compete. 

Meanwhile Luiz Gohara broke in with the Braves last year and Neidert will probably break in with the Marlins this year, playing a #4 starter role for 8 figures less a season than Leake will for us. Seattle will probably trade for another starter, but it'll have to be outfielders that go. With the continuing knee problems of Kyle Lewis, his All-Star caliber talent won't get that kind of return, so if he gets moved it will be for less that it should be.  More likely Heredia goes for a bullpen arm or something and we roll three #6 starters out there looking for pitching spots.

It's a big whiff.

Plus now every time someone says Seattle and Gordon together for the next several years I'll think they're talking about me, and it'll be really annoying. Of course, being annoying is probably Seattle's marketing slogan for 2018.

"Seattle Mariners: still annoying their fans since 2001. Also, watch as we celebrate the 2001 season all over again..."

Jerry always has plans B, C, D and E, but so far I haven't seen that those plans are ever good plans.  They just tread water.  This roster is aging out and Seattle doesn't have the minors stocked to replace them.  I get his need to swing now, because if it doesn't happen now with an ace restock to build the next iteration around it will be hard to make it happen ever.

Jerry's just not making enough contact.

17

We're now chasing a team packed with young superstars (the Astros), a team with a young nucleus of solid position player talent (the Rangers), and the team that has Ohtani for free for three years (and at a relative bargain the next three) and Mike Trout and a very affordable contract.

I've never seen a moment in this team's history where they were more self-evidently $&^%*$ed. See you all in a decade of additional pathetic futility.

18

The Mariners have the exceedingly expensive downside of Cano's career to look forward to, as well as Felix's transformation into a #4 starter. It's going to  be tough to stop that missed-playoff streak. Hopefully Lewis gets his health squared away and turns into The Hawk real quick - and the Ms find a pitching all star or two.

They just won't be named Ohtani, and that makes it unlikely. Turning coal into diamonds is not Seattle's strong suit.

20

I don't think Lewis will go this year, but he might. I don't think he can trade Carlson or White yet, but Carlson especially will be vulnerable later because he's so far from the bugs. Still looks to me like the next GM will have a total rebuild on his hands and no assets to work with. Welcome to being the Royals from a decade ago. That's a plus, right? After 3 decades out of the playoffs they got it turned around a little.

So many things to look forward to.

21
The Other Billy Zoom's picture

just announced that Ohtani signed with Angels.

zoom

22
Nathan H's picture

I'm happy that Shohei's happy with his decision.

This is a...problematic development for the team's post-season chances.

24

I'd agree that a firesale was in order except:

Guys who other teams want - 

Haniger (can't trade him...too valuable)
Gamel/Heredia (in a package, maybe one of them helps, on their own, they aren't going to give you good pieces for the future)
Paxton (if you trade him, you'd better be right, because he's still young and cheap)
A flotilla of bad and not particularly high-upside fringe starting pitchers (none of that helps)
A few bullpen arms (most of whom are young and cheap)
Nelson Cruz (one year of an aging DH with power...maybe you could get one good prospect for that?)
Kyle Seager (on a reasonable contract, but the expensive half of it and now 30+...maybe you can get a couple of solid prospects, but guy who you build for the future around?)
Cano (to get prospects back, we'd have to eat a TON of that contract and he has full no-trade protection, so we have no leverage)
Zunino (can't trade him...young and cheap and catching is so thin league-wide that you'll never...ever replace him)

And that's it.

Maybe you can get someone to overpay for Edwin Diaz? Hard to do given how young and good he is.

And this is Dipoto we're talking about. His trade record is pretty lousy at this point other than Haniger/Segura for Walker and Gamel for AAAA guy.

I think a rebuild is not possible...the farm system is too far gone.

25
Taro's picture

Paxton would get a massive haul if you trade him at the right time. Diaz perhaps but he needs to make the leap. Otherwise I agree with you, but the Ms still need to do it. We need to start amassing those 1-1 1-2 picks for several years.

27

The M's are terrible at rebuilding from the draft anyways... They either get fool's gold in the early rounds or can't pick out the diamonds in the rough.

28
Taro's picture

True. It needs to happen at some point. These things are cyclical and the Mariners have been resisting for the last two decades.

29

I'd probably do a one-to-one swap for Stanton.  I'd *probably* even do a two-fer-one (plus bits from our end) in exchange for Yelich and Ozuna.  Paxton's terrifying in every way imaginable.  If he succeeds and throws 200+ innings for the rest of his club-control years, he's gone (or here on a contract that could crippled the franchise), and if he doesn't succeed and keeps getting injured then his value plummets.  But when he's out there pitching, there's nobody who can lay serious claim to being BETTER at pitching a baseball than he is.

Stanton's got injury problems of his own, but most of those could be ameliorated via the DH slot.

30

Any Paxton trade must include elite pitching in return. There's no point in trading for Yelich and Ozuna.

Unless you enjoy the prospect of trading away Haniger.

31

Again, it's not a situation with a gun to his head saying "your signature or your brains are gonna be on that contract".

I don't see how any of us can call this a Mariner failure.  It certainly is Mariner luck though.  I still would rather have seen this then to see a "we tried" with no evidence that they did.  It's extremely clear they were all in.  It was a potential franchise defining moment.  They did what they had to.  But you gotta have willingness on the other side.  

32

Loved the Gordon move for its brazenness, hated it when the brazenness flamed into a spiraling-into-the-ground-plane-wreck.

We absolutely must sign a top flight arm now, but we’re cash short, it seems.  

Good for a Ohtani for surprising us all.  And he gets to watch Mike Trout play everyday.  

We get to watch Heredia.  

33

right now I don’t even want to watch baseball next season. I despise Ohtani, hope he fails miserably. 

36

Scoscia had his time, but hasn't kept pace with the game. Whatever. I don't even care anymore. The Mariners never get the exciting asset they need to finish a team.

I don't know how much I'm even going to bother watching this year

38

With there being speculation that Darvish had a bad taste in his mouth with Texas, night it also be possible that Ichiro didn’t like the way he was treated his last few years with Seattle before being traded?  Maybe he put a bug in Ohtani’s ear. 

39

The Angels were second-to-last on my list of his remaining seven teams for a few reasons.  Literally, if he was going to sign with an LA team, it seemed like the Dodgers were the better pick.  Oh well.

I don't fault the M's in their process on this one.  They pulled out all the stops.  The path to contention, however, does not appear obvious at this point.  Not saying it's impossible, but it's not nearly as clear as it would have been with Ohtani in the fold.

Gordon is a fungible asset, guys.  He can be traded for equivalent value in another part of the roster.  Miami was severely handicapped in THEIR trade efforts of him because they couldn't take ANY contractual obligations back in return--not so with the M's.  They could very easily flip him into a SP; he's young, a former batting champion and GGer and annual stolen base king who plays 2B.  That's HUGELY valuable.

And I'm not even saying we SHOULD trade him.  I'm just saying we COULD trade him, straight up, for an equivalent pitcher--OR we could package him with what's left of the farm for someone like Archer.

40

Read: they are immediately and painfully aware that the Mariners are now completely out of leverage and that Dee Gordon is one lost step away from being not a very good baseball player. Won't work.

41

I get the pessimism.  I really do.  But Dee Gordon is a former batting champion, and year-in, year-out contender for the SB crown.  He also plays GG-caliber 2B, and is on an affordable, short-ish contract that doesn't extend into his projected decline years.

He's a valuable commodity.  Full stop.  A half dozen teams in baseball would give you 1:1 value for him because he'd be a huge upgrade for them.  Full stop.  Maybe the Rays specifically wouldn't be a fit, but some team, somewhere, would take him if the M's brass decided he needed to be converted into something else.

43

Sad.

But... Like I was saying from the beginning, Ohtani alone would not have made the M's into surefire contenders.

You would have at least needed an extra SP1 and some more back of the bullpen types to even look remotely like the Astros.

The issue is that the farm is even more destroyed now and the M's have no clear strategy from here.

Other teams that were in position are also able to walk off the pain.

---

I don't blame DiPoto for the boldness, but I do blame him for misreading the situation.

I don't blame the Mariners for trying so hard, but I do blame them for being... Reckless? Wishy-washy? Planless?

And in the end, if the M's aren't going to spend like the Dodgers, nosedive-and-rebuild like the Astros/Braves, nor even be able to go a year without trading prospects for meh-level players... What are you going to do?

47

Ohtani thought that Dipoto was still with the Angels

48

That Ichiro swayed him away from signing with us?  I've heard rumors that the players treated him pretty poorly his last few years he was with us

49

But I can't buy into the fatalism.

The Mariners have a VERY good lineup.  And it's not unrealistic to think that Haniger, Zunino, Gamel and Heredia have yet to reach their upsides.  Healy I like.  And keeping Nellie as DH prevents us from having to trot out a weakened outfield defense.  In Anaheim, putting Ohtani in the lineup means one of Cron, Pujols, Calhoun or Upton has to sit.  He's not a pure add.  

Of course, our pitching remains a question...and the Angels' just got better.  But assuming equal health, I say our staff is better.  (Remember, Ohtani pitched just 25 innings last year thanks to leg injuries incurred playing the field.  How much of a load can he handle this year?)  Once JD figures out how to replace Miranda as a fifth starter, we will be better.  Paxton vs. Ohtani?  Take your pick...but I like our guy until Ohtani proves himself.  We have a closer that throws 100MPH...and gives up a lot of homers.

Finally, it's obvious no one knows how Ohtani will do this year.  But some people project anyway.  Like Doc, I trust Shandler's people as much as anyone else.

As I've posted before, their estimates:

Pitching: 160 IP, 3.52/1.23, 9.3 K9, 3.7 BB/9.  That last number is the key.  They put his talent level at that of Darvish and Tanaka when they came over (although obviously he's younger).  Darvish is the most similar in terms of stuff--but he struggled for several years with control.  Could be the difference in the ball, or other things.  In any case, control is the bugaboo.  For next year they slot him into a category that includes Paxton, Arrieta, Samardzja, Salazar, Maeda, Santana and Porcello.  In other words, someone you want--but not someone you can count on to make an all star team.

Hitting: 258 AB, 10/40/255, 761 OPS.  Big red flag on contact rate...which was a problem in Japan.  As M's fans well know, 500 feet in batting practice is worth diddly.  He's in a value category (considering limited ABs) that thus includes Seth Smith, Joc Pederson. Granderson, Marisnick--and Heredia.  In other words, not an asset.  The Angels may be better off NOT having him hit.  

So, it's still anyone's guess.  If there's enough money left to land Darvish, we're better.  If not, we'll see who the new starter is.

But as someone once said, if you can't be optimistic, why be a sports fan?  

I will not give up hope!

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